OncoPTs are part of a patient’s oncology team during the most vulnerable moments of life, including the end of life. However, many clinicians feel unprepared to hold conversations about death and dying and manage the emotional toll that comes with this work.
In this APTA CSM Preview episode, I’m joined by Drs. Adam Matichak and Lori Boright for a grounded, compassionate conversation about what PTs need to know to show up confidently in hospice and palliative care settings.
We talk about:
- The OncoPT’s role when the goal is no longer “getting better,” but living fully
- How to navigate difficult conversations about functional decline, goals of care, and quality of life
- Why “Death is not a dirty word”… and how normalizing these conversations can transform patient care
No matter your previous experience, this episode will help you understand the landscape, communicate more clearly, and care for yourself as you care for others.
If you’re headed to CSM 2026, add this session to your schedule:
Death Is Not a Dirty Word: The What’s What of Hospice and Palliative Care
Mark your calendar for ON-23579 – Death Is Not a Dirty Word: The What’s What of Hospice and Palliative Care
ON-23579 – Death Is Not a Dirty Word: The What’s What of Hospice and Palliative Care will take place on Thursday, February 12, 2025 at 2pm.
This session will be available on-demand.
About Adam Matichak, PT, DPT
Dr. Adam Matichak, PT, DPT, is a board-certified clinical specialist in oncologic physical therapy through the American Board of Physical Therapy Specialties (ABPTS). As an acute care physical therapist at Stanford Healthcare, he works alongside the Hematology/Oncology and Bone Marrow Transplant teams, specializing in the rehabilitation of patients undergoing complex cancer treatments, including stem cell transplantation. His clinical expertise is rooted in optimizing physical function, mitigating treatment-related side effects, and enhancing overall quality of life for individuals facing the challenges of cancer. Beyond his clinical work, Adam is deeply committed to education and mentorship, not only in the realm of cancer rehabilitation but also in the vital soft skills that define truly exceptional healthcare providers. He believes that effective rehabilitation extends beyond exercises and mobility—it requires skilled communication, the ability to navigate difficult conversations, and a deep understanding of grief and loss. His passion lies in equipping providers with the tools to foster trust, manage emotionally charged discussions, and support patients and families through the realities of serious illness and end-of-life care. Adam has shared his expertise as a featured speaker on multiple podcasts, as well as at national conferences, including the Cancer Rehab Community Conference and the APTA Combined Sections Meeting (CSM). His presentations integrate the science of cancer rehabilitation with the art of patient-centered care, emphasizing the need for physical therapists and other healthcare providers to develop both technical expertise and emotional intelligence. Through his work, Adam continues to push the boundaries of oncologic rehabilitation and provider education, ensuring that the next generation of healthcare professionals is not only clinically skilled but also compassionate, emotionally resilient, and equipped to navigate the profound human experiences that define patient care.
Connect with Adam on LinkedIn.
About Lori Boright, PT, DPT, DScPT
Lori Boright PT, DPT, DScPT, CLT is an Assistant Professor at Oakland University in Rochester Michigan where she also serves as Coordinator of the Graduate Certificate in Oncology Rehabilitation. She is a Clinical Cancer Exercise Specialist, credentialed by the University of Northern Colorado Cancer Rehabilitation Institute. She received her DScPT and Graduate Certificate in Oncology Rehabilitation from Oakland University, DPT from AT Still University, MPT from University of Michigan Flint, and BS in physiology from Michigan State University. Her research agenda focuses on primary and secondary disease prevention inclusive of prehabilitation for a variety of cancer diagnoses and upstreaming initiatives for community and population health promotion. She is also investigating US and international standards for entry-level and advanced practice oncology rehabilitation education, and implementing a modular curriculum in the US, South Africa, and parts of Europe to address the increasing need for practitioners to superintend the cancer burden on quality of life. Dr. Boright practices clinically in acute care at Henry Ford Macomb Hospital. Dr. Boright currently serves American Physical Therapy Association (APTA) Oncology as the Chair of the Hospice and Palliative Care Special Interest Group. She is also the Managing Editor for the APTA Oncology’s new clinically focused publication, Oncology Rehabilitation in Practice. Dr. Boright serves APTA Michigan as Chair of the Oncology Rehabilitation Special Interest Group, the first state-level oncology rehabilitation special interest group dedicated to advocacy and clinical best practice development for persons with oncology diagnoses. She has published many peer-reviewed publications and is a frequent speaker at the state and national level in the prevention and education domains. She co-edited and authored the textbook entitled: Oncology Rehabilitation: A Comprehensive Guidebook for Clinicians published by Elsevier in October of 2022.
Connect with Lori on LinkedIn.
Transcript
Elise Cantu (00:19)
Hey Onco PT and welcome to this episode of the Onco PT podcast. In today’s episode, we are continuing our APTA CSM 2026 preview episodes. And if you were at the Cancer Rehab Community Conference 2025, you even got a little bit of a preview of this topic when Dr. Adam Matichak gave his presentation. Now we are going to…
Strictly focused today’s conversation on their CSM session, but if you haven’t watched the replay, I highly encourage you that TCRCC session was absolutely one for the books and was one of my favorites from that entire conference. And so I’m really excited to continue this discussion and to see that Adam and our other guest, Dr. Lori Boright are continuing this really important discussion at this year’s CSM conference. So.
Without any further delay, let me turn it over to our incredible guests today. First up, Dr. Adam Matichek. Welcome back to the Onco PT podcast.
Adam Matichak, PT (01:21)
Always a pleasure. I love doing these things. ⁓ Yeah, I’m an inpatient PT at Stanford HealthCare out in Palo Alto, California. Been practicing for over a decade now in the hematology, oncology, bone marrow transplant, and immunotherapy space. ⁓ I had a blast doing my session at the Cancer Rehab Community Conference this past year. It was very well received and looking forward to rolling some of that content into our CSM presentation.
Elise Cantu (01:51)
Like I don’t know, Adam’s very much underselling how well received this presentation was. It was probably one of the audience favorites and for exceptionally good reason. So Adam, we’re so excited to have you back. We’re so excited that you gave that presentation at the conference. And then as I mentioned previously, our other guest today is Dr. Lori Boright. Lori, welcome back.
Lori Boright (01:57)
You
Thanks so much, Elise. And anytime I get to work with either you or Adam and the two of you together is just a delight. So I too am pleased to be here. I will say that the idea for this session was actually born at your conference in 2024. Adam messaged me and he doesn’t even know this, but I saved the little like Aquaman message that he sent me because it’s an EcoBoost. It was so great when he…
Elise Cantu (02:31)
my God.
Lori Boright (02:41)
decided that he would like to collaborate with me on a similar topic, ⁓ there’s no way I would have have declined that opportunity. So this has been a little time in coming, but I am excited to continue this dialogue. It certainly is ⁓ an area that ⁓ needs some more discussion. I ⁓ currently practice at Henry Ford in ⁓ Metro Detroit as a clinician, but my full-time job actually
Elise Cantu (03:00)
Mm-hmm.
Lori Boright (03:09)
is a faculty at Oakland University in Rochester, Michigan. I am the incoming director of clinical education, which has been a wonderful transition and kind of keeps me ⁓ engaged on that side with students. But ⁓ in terms of my service, I am the chair of APT Oncology, Hospice and Palliative Care Special Interest Group. So this topic that we’re going to be discussing today and certainly that Adam and I will be
Adam Matichak, PT (03:21)
you
Lori Boright (03:38)
bringing to the conference is something that is definitely near and dear. so I’m delighted to highlight it. So thanks for the opportunity.
Elise Cantu (03:47)
man. So to actually, I mean, one of the things we do in these episodes is to get a little bit on the background of like, why did you think that this session was important to submit? Why is it important to talk about? And so I would love a little behind the scenes on like, how did this topic, how did this session come to be? ⁓ Especially since, you know, one of the things that listeners who may not know, especially if they’re new to the conference scene, you really have to like plan things.
Sometimes you’re coming up with sessions well before a conference because the deadline to submit is way ahead, but you have a really long runway from when this kind of was the inception to eventually February 2026 when you’re gonna present it. So tell us a little bit about
Adam Matichak, PT (04:36)
Yeah, so first off, the session is called Death is Not a Dirty Word. ⁓ so, yeah, taking us way back to the Cancer Rehab Community Conference 2024, ⁓ Lori did a session on like hospice and palliative care. ⁓ And then I had my session after that on trauma-informed care. ⁓ And so we started talking, messaging back and forth on LinkedIn, like…
Elise Cantu (04:52)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Adam Matichak, PT (05:04)
we need to do this on a bigger platform. We need to kind of roll these concepts together. And then we finally met in person at CSM last year at the celebration of life and like, all right, pull the trigger, we’re doing this. So that’s kind of where it all started. ⁓
Lori Boright (05:24)
Yep, agreed. And I think, Elise, just to kind of speak to the timeline of all of this, when I decided that it was a good idea to start giving some airway to this topic, that was winter of 2024 when I’d already written a little bit about this topic. And certainly, have wonderful colleagues.
literally down the hall from where I work, Dr. Chris Wilson, I would be remiss if I didn’t mention his name in some of this discussion because this is an area of ⁓ certainly expertise and definitely professional passion for him as well. ⁓ And so again, just sort of reinforcing that timeline, some of this work, I mean, it’s ongoing, but the idea for ⁓ sharing the professional importance and really, I think the…
the impetus and ⁓ purpose for doing this is to equip our workforce, right? And to give confidence not only to students in this space, but certainly to our colleagues who ⁓ don’t have the skills and even the language to have some of these really tough conversations. So that’s kind of where Adam and my idea blended in terms of ⁓ equipping, but also.
Elise Cantu (06:25)
Mm-hmm.
Lori Boright (06:43)
giving some time and emphasis on how to practice having some of these conversations. And that’s something that certainly Adam excels at. ⁓ And so bringing this in a really practical way to help equip our workforce to manage ⁓ working in an area that we really are underutilized. So again, bringing confidence and expertise.
Elise Cantu (07:05)
Mm-hmm.
Adam Matichak, PT (07:09)
Yeah, like just to the fact that like and just bring more awareness to rehab’s role in these hospice and palliative care patients, right? Like the number of times that, you know, I’ll open a chart and see, you know, PTOT signed off patient transferring to hospice. And it’s like, well, why? Like there’s still so much that we can offer for patients, you know.
Elise Cantu (07:18)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Adam Matichak, PT (07:32)
down to their last couple of days, if there’s things that they wanna do and engage in, and if family wants to be involved and help position patients for comfort and be able to transfer them safely, there is so much that we can still do for patients even as they enter this end of life phase.
Elise Cantu (07:50)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Lori Boright (07:51)
Absolutely,
and I feel like there is a stigma around palliative care and certainly hospice, but palliative care especially. really feel like that is the golden zone where we have so much potential and can impact.
Elise Cantu (08:05)
Hey, OncoPTs this is Elise cutting in really quick. Now I wanted to let you know we had a little bit of a technology snafu in the middle of our recording and then unfortunately cut off some of the brilliance that Dr. Lori Boright was sharing. In this next clip, I’m recapping it and we get right back into the rest of our interview. So I just want to let you know, little tech issue, we cleared it up. Don’t worry, you didn’t miss anything because I recap it right now. But I especially want you to pay attention to the quote.
that Lori said that I repeat, is we are signing off on patients when we should actually be signing on. Anyways, I’ll let Lori take it away from here.
Elise Cantu (08:43)
Lori, I think you had left off with like.
Hospice is kind of a dirty word. Palliative care is misunderstood. We have a really big role to play in hospice and palliative care. And especially this is a really important point to be bringing awareness of how rehab has such an important role to play in these domains, but also equipping our workforce. We have physical therapists who are going in and going to be working.
with patients who are diagnosed with cancer, who are towards the end of their life or like literally at the end of their life. And you said something that really just like resonated, which was we’re signing off on these patients when we really need to be signing on to these patients. And I think that really defines a lot of what we’re seeing. And again, this is big picture. I know there’s exceptions out there, obviously, because y’all are doing this work with your patients.
Lori Boright (09:33)
Okay.
Elise Cantu (09:46)
I work with patients, even an outpatient who are in this like end of life area. We have a really, really big role to play, but I think we tend to as a profession to really kind of step back and say, we’re not really needed right now. This is not really where we need to be spending time or whatever. And that’s totally false. So can we spend just a little more time for maybe the listener who is newer to working with patients who
We know we’re dealing with terminal illnesses like this, who we are working in, know, hospice and whatnot, end of life care. Can we talk a little bit just very briefly on what does that kind of look like for the physical therapist working with a person with cancer who is dying?
Adam Matichak, PT (10:34)
Yeah, and so that’s one of the huge things that Lori and I wanted to accomplish with this presentation is it’s kind of like three ideas that we like melded into one. And so we’re going to start with like, you know, kind of the what’s what about hospice and palliative care and kind of how rehab fits into that.
Elise Cantu (10:53)
Mm-hmm.
Adam Matichak, PT (10:53)
And
then we’re going to transition into like how to have those difficult conversations when we have a patient that’s at end of life or is transitioning into this hospice phase where they kind of know, right, that they only have so much time left and they ask us like, you know, is it really worth it to keep doing these things? So how do we approach that conversation? And then on the back end of it, we’re going to get into, you know, when you lose a patient that you were close to or
Lori Boright (11:07)
you
Adam Matichak, PT (11:19)
You you come into work expecting to see a patient and they’re no longer on your patient list. How do we kind of deal with those things? How do we handle that grief in a way that is, you know, not only honoring that patient, but it’s going to allow us to protect ourselves and continue to be productive at work. So I think we have a really good like cluster of ideas that kind of really came together for this presentation.
Elise Cantu (11:25)
Mm-hmm.
Lori Boright (11:44)
I will agree. I think it is very ambitious, but all of these things are essential ⁓ to reinforce what I previously said in terms of equipping our workforce and certainly building confidence in this area of practice. So I feel like we do also need to talk a little bit about the elephant in the room in terms of me having opened that can of worms. There are.
real issues in terms of administrators looking at staffing and if we can sign off on these individuals and move our staffing to another area. So this is where I feel compelled to advocate. Again, it’s a role with part of my service work and certainly, ⁓ what I’m really passionate about is educating. The World Health Organization really has ⁓
demonstrated that we are saving money and it is definitely efficacious to be using our rehabilitation staff to optimize this time working with these individuals. If they have a terminal illness, we are promoting quality of life throughout that lifespan, but also then equipping them for what might be needed downstream. it really… ⁓
Elise Cantu (12:42)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Lori Boright (13:05)
You know, that again is a big emphasis for this. But then, as Adam said, how does the clinician approach this patient, this patient’s family? And then the aftermath of that, if you are a carer and you are an empath, you’re going to be absorbing a lot of what’s going on. And how do you set your boundaries, your professional boundaries so that you can maintain? I don’t like the terminology healthy work.
you know, work-life balance, they’re really, it’s an ebb and a flow and more of ⁓ a synchronicity that needs to happen ⁓ when we talk about that balance.
Elise Cantu (13:38)
Mm-hmm.
Adam Matichak, PT (13:45)
And Lori, I’m so glad that you brought that up because, right, like we talk about the financial implications of working with these patients and the restrictions that we have with working with these patients. what it all boils down to is if it’s important to the patient, it should be important to us. And how do we make it work? So.
Lori Boright (14:01)
Right, and that’s another really, really good point when our administrators are saying that patient satisfaction really drives our metrics and how do we do that? I really feel like rehab should be at the forefront of every one of those conversations because we can help meet the metrics in terms of patient satisfaction. Who’s gonna be filling out the satisfaction surveys for someone who has been recently deceased, right? We need to meet the needs of the family as well.
Elise Cantu (14:31)
Mm-hmm.
Lori Boright (14:31)
⁓
I feel like every statement we make just keeps folding on ⁓ the last. And really the emphasis is the importance of our profession and really needing to be part of this interdisciplinary team. have been underrepresented, under recognized, and it’s not a blame game. It’s probably through our own.
Elise Cantu (14:39)
Mm-hmm.
Lori Boright (14:57)
discomfort in being at that table, right? So again, highlighting the emphasis on building confidence. Why are we so valuable? We are helping to, ⁓ you know, meet those both of those things, confidence and skill.
Adam Matichak, PT (15:16)
Yeah, am I?
I take a lot of pleasure in being the one to stir that pot sometimes because I’ll get called into a goals of care conversation for one of our patients that has long-term Grafers Host Disease and the docs are in that goals of care conversation, continuing to bring up, we have this option, we have this option, we have this option. I’m usually the one that’s in the room that goes, and you can also just be done. We don’t have to keep doing this. We don’t have to keep throwing ideas at the wall and seeing which one sticks.
Lori Boright (15:21)
You
Elise Cantu (15:22)
Yes. Yes.
Adam Matichak, PT (15:47)
Like, you know, especially, you know, with my rehab background, right? I’m usually the one like we have you in a position right now where you are functionally able to do enough to be able to go home and enjoy whatever time you have with your family. And, you know, these are the things that you’re still able to do. So from a professional standpoint, right? How do we have that conversation with the rest of the multidisciplinary team? Because right? Like we are sometimes butting heads with the docs that, you know, every, I feel like most doctors have.
Elise Cantu (16:01)
Mm-hmm.
Adam Matichak, PT (16:17)
kind of that like God complex, like, you know, you’re in a tough situation, but you know, we can probably solve this problem. you know, sometimes they can’t. And so who is going to be the person in that room that says, you know, you’re still able to do this, this and this, and you can go home and be comfortable and we can make sure that you’re still able to engage in things with your family and not just ride this out to the bitter end in the hospital.
Elise Cantu (16:39)
Mm-hmm.
Yes to all the things. This is a yes and right? Because y’all have said so many things. I’m just sitting in the wisdom at this point. And I hope the listener is acutely tuned into like what is being said in this conversation. But Adam, what you have said really, I’ve been having a like months long conversation with a physical therapist in our community who’s really dealing with this and is really fighting this uphill battle. ⁓ Where it is, I mean, it is like,
Lori Boright (16:47)
Mm-hmm.
Thank you.
Elise Cantu (17:17)
to that bitter end and I think beyond because there’s not someone who’s advocating and can be in that position that’s really kind of centering on the quality of life and the function and the, you know, like, I mean, we talk about quality of life and functional independence and mobility and whatnot a lot on this podcast and like, if it’s important to the patient, it needs to be at the center of what we care about as the healthcare professional. And sometimes I do feel like that can get very lost in those situations.
And Loria, really appreciate, so two things, what you said, I want to call out first and foremost, you said this is an ambitious, you know, topic or presentation, but this is the time to be ambitious and talking about this. think professionally, and you know, this is as a younger clinician who is newer to this realm. ⁓ I am like eight years in, so I feel like I’m on this cusp of like, I know things, but also I’m still really new. We.
must be ambitious. We must be stirring that pot because I think we have seen for the past 10, 15, 20 years of things are happening not fast enough. And it’s because we’re not putting ourselves in these rooms. We’re not putting ourselves in these conversations. We don’t have the knowledge. We don’t have the confidence to be able to do this. And I think this is a session that is really going to tackle both aspects of knowing
Adam Matichak, PT (18:20)
We have two minutes.
Elise Cantu (18:44)
But like knowing the material, but also knowing yourself and how to step up into these roles of taking charge and being able to go back to our institutions and advocating for our profession, advocating for our patients in a very underserved domain of patient care. The evidence is abundant. If you go and look at the literature, like Lori mentioned previously, the World Health Organization, there are
so many different papers that have been published over the years that really show the support for rehab being an integral part of, you know, hospice and palliative care. Like the numbers are there, right? We have plenty of support for this. It’s now actually bringing this, ⁓ we talked about this before the podcast. It’s bringing it into reality. It’s making it happen. This is one of those sessions that I think attendees are really going to take away from and be like,
⁓ I learned a lot, but I also know how to take this and I know how to start bringing it to my institution, bringing it to my patients, bringing it to my team so that we can better serve in this area that is so desperately needing of a stronger rehab presence, especially in 2026 and beyond. 100%.
Adam Matichak, PT (20:06)
Yeah, and I think that was one of Lori and I’s big goals for this was like, yes, like here is all of the background on why we should be involved in these patients, in this patient population. But here’s the tools that you need to actually go and do it. So I think we wanted to make it as applicable as possible.
Elise Cantu (20:20)
Yes! my god. my god.
Lori Boright (20:26)
Yep, absolutely. I feel like, you know, we’re going to be weaving in some case work along with this, but I feel like probably the most tangible and I don’t want to say useful because I’m hoping that, you know, the entire session will be useful. ⁓ But actually practicing and having conversations using words that, you know, you’re not that are part of your daily vernacular. They need to be rolling off your tongue because you.
The important thing is you being confident, but you need to project that confidence so that you know, it is evident you You know you need to be there not only for your peers who are going to be looking at like why is the PT here? Right, but also the family the PT is speaking, you know real you know honest and truth and giving us things that
Elise Cantu (21:09)
Mm-hmm.
Lori Boright (21:19)
you know, we obviously need, but you always have to project that in a way that ⁓ instills confidence. So you’re building that rapport.
Elise Cantu (21:26)
Mm-hmm.
Adam Matichak, PT (21:28)
And this is
not one of those fake it till you make it skills. Like this is something that you need to practice, that you need to, right? If we’re stepping into a goals of care conversation where their primary doctor is there, their palliative care doctor is there, like we need to be able to step up and speak to these things with confidence and we need to be able to educate and advocate effectively.
Elise Cantu (21:32)
Yeah. ⁓
Lori Boright (21:53)
Yeah, I’m getting more and more excited about this and thinking that there’s, mean, this isn’t a one-off, know, Adam, I’m not putting pressure on you, but there are other things that, you know, we don’t have time to cover in this session that maybe we can tease towards, you know, you know, future sessions. But I feel like this is definitely, you know, a big step in, you know, meeting some of the things that we really set out to do.
Elise Cantu (21:53)
100%.
Mm-hmm. Part of being that ambitious topic, ambitious session. Like I do think that’s absolutely part of it. And, you know, I appreciate this is a skill set. We don’t learn in school. I mean, I think there was an underlying kind of attitude in PT school of like,
orthopedics and neuro and different things. like, you know, ideally in PT we’re working with people who are having, they have surgery and then they get better and we get them back to things. And that’s totally true. That’s totally true. But we also have to acknowledge the dying part of things. And that is so much more present in oncology than maybe a lot of other, you know, specialties within physical therapy. And I think we are really
under preparing future oncology physical therapists to walk into this space and be able to step in and have these conversations effectively, confidently, not just with the patient, with the family, the healthcare team, like everybody. And if we’re really going to advance, if we’re really going to elevate how we practice as a profession in working with people from the moment of diagnosis,
through end of life, we really have to focus more on that end of life. You know, I think in the past few years, we’ve done a really good job. The Royal We, right? Like I sit here and I talk about it behind a microphone, but like our field has done a good job. I think of really highlighting the benefits and capitalizing on, this is what prehab can really do. And that’s awesome. And it’s very necessary. And I’m glad that we’ve been doing this. We also can’t let the bottom fall out of the conversation at the other end of that spectrum.
⁓ and I think it, does require these very vulnerable, ambitious conversations, but I appreciate Adam, what you said about this also requires on going practice. Y’all have mentioned that y’all have explicitly stated that and alluded to it. This is something that you have to practice and you have to start by being kind of bad at it. I mean, I will never forget. I’ve told Adam this previously, Lori, but the very first patient that I ever worked with.
Who was dying was a gentleman who I saw in my very first month of practicing. he, you know, normally he was very on time for his sessions. I saw him like at the very end of the day. And one day he was late and it was like, this is kind of weird. And it turns out that he had just, he, when he finally came in, he was distraught. Obviously his oncologist had just had the conversation with him and his family about this is the end of the road. You need to get your affairs in order.
Lori Boright (24:55)
Thank
Elise Cantu (25:12)
there is nothing more that we can do for you. And I absolutely failed to show up in the way that this patient needed in that moment. And that has stuck with me and that will stick with me for the rest of my career because of how poorly I handled that situation and how I needed to show up for that patient and just did it. And so like, this is an example for the listener. And again, that was me in outpatient. You are going to see this in any setting.
any patient population, if you work with oncology, you are going to see this at some point. It’s then a matter of, you prepared to at least show up and start having these conversations confidently, compassionately with your patients, with their family members, et cetera.
Lori Boright (25:41)
Hmm.
Adam Matichak, PT (25:59)
and our patients. Go at
Lori Boright (25:59)
And
there are a lot of tools out there. ⁓ so we will be bringing some of those tools in a very practical way. But at least I have to back up. The only way we get better at things is by making mistakes. I personally, I’m glad that you reflected. But I think you also need to give yourself a little bit more grace, because I do believe that things
Elise Cantu (26:10)
Excellent.
Right?
I appreciate that, ⁓
Lori Boright (26:29)
Happen for a reason i’m a spiritual be like being i do believe in divine interventions perhaps that individual was exactly what you needed to motivate you right to to improve and so i but i don’t i don’t think it’s healthy either for you to think about that in such a negative context i really feel like you should turn the script you have grown and you did what you could you did what you were equipped. Four at that moment.
Elise Cantu (26:50)
I appreciate that, Lori.
Lori Boright (26:58)
So this will hopefully address that for many people and maybe be the impetus for ⁓ continued practice because we’ve said before, yes, we’re going to give you some tools and hope that you utilize those tools on a regular basis to improve, right? We can’t fix everything in 90 minutes, but hopefully we can address some of that.
you know, those feelings of lack of confidence and ⁓ needing to have some of those tools at the ready. But then it’s, you know, on the person to use those tools. So we’re hoping to provide some space for the beginning of that journey.
Elise Cantu (27:39)
Yep.
Adam Matichak, PT (27:45)
That’s the mom and Lori making sure that you’re taking care of yourself over there. But no, no, the first time that I had a patient, you know, look at me and go, why are we doing this? And, you know, my PT brain goes, well, we’re working on this exercise so you can do X, Y, and Z. And he goes, like, I have like five months left to live. Why are we doing this?
Elise Cantu (27:50)
I love it. I love
Lori Boright (27:50)
Yeah.
Adam Matichak, PT (28:14)
and like totally like not equipped to have this conversation. And our patients know, right? Our patients know when we’re uncomfortable having that conversation. ⁓ And that’s one of the things that kind of spurred my presentation at your conference and part of this presentation for CSM.
Elise Cantu (28:19)
Yeah. Yeah.
Adam Matichak, PT (28:34)
is that we need to be more comfortable having these conversations, right? Like we brought up the point during my presentation at the Cancer Rehab Community Conference, like you need to get comfortable being uncomfortable because like these conversations, like they never get easier, but we get better at having them, right? So.
Lori Boright (28:46)
Mm-hmm.
Elise Cantu (28:52)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Adam Matichak, PT (28:54)
We’re going to give you some tools. We’re going to go over some different frameworks so that you at least, if you get stuck in lizard brain, I don’t know what to do, go to step one, start at step one, and then get to step two and just work. There’s a lot of different frameworks out there that you can use. And we’re going to touch on a few of the different ones that are really effective for having these conversations.
Lori Boright (28:54)
Thank
Elise Cantu (29:15)
Mm-hmm.
Adam Matichak, PT (29:20)
It at least gives you that starting point. And then you weave your humanity into it and you get better at having these conversations.
Lori Boright (29:29)
Absolutely. feel like that’s one of the biggest things we have to offer is our humanity and sitting with people in moments of discomfort. And again, how do you get better at something? You continue to do it. ⁓ So, yeah, you need to the human in you needs to sit with the human in front of you who is facing potentially the end of life. That’s your your biggest gift that you have to give.
Adam Matichak, PT (30:00)
The number of sessions that I’ve had with patients where I’ve walked out of the room and been like, well, that was a large chunk of my day and I can’t bill for any of it, right? But that probably was probably the most important part of that patient’s day, right? Was like, when we have a patient that gets bad news from their doc and they are now facing their mortality, right? Like…
Elise Cantu (30:20)
Yeah.
Adam Matichak, PT (30:29)
The number of times that I’ve sit with patients that they’ve told me about like their biggest regrets and their fears about dying and like things that they’re most proud of in their life. And it’s like, I love those conversations with patients, right? Like that’s why we do what we do. It’s one of my favorite things about being in the inpatient setting, especially with like our bone marrow transplant patients. Like these patients are in the hospital for a month at a time. We get to know our patients really well. ⁓
Elise Cantu (30:53)
time. Yeah.
Adam Matichak, PT (30:56)
You
know, it’s not like right over on the ortho side where these patients are in and out in 24 to 48 hours. Like we get to know our patients really well. Like we have really deep conversations with our patients sometimes. And right, like those are the moments where, like Lori said, it’s the you showing up for that patient. It’s not PT Adam, it’s just Adam.
Elise Cantu (31:17)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah. ⁓ man, y’all are dropping all kinds of one-liners in this episode. ⁓ Lori, when you said, you know, the human in you sitting with the human in them, that is something Adam, I’ve picked up. Adam has said time and time again when talking about this, you know, the human in you meeting the human in them. And I think that’s such an important part of if we’re really going to have these…
vulnerable, but also…
Like truly genuine. And there’s a better word than genuine, but it’s not coming to mind right now. you know, thank you. That’s the one I was looking for. Thank you so much, Lori. If we’re really going to sit and have these very authentic conversations about really tough topics, I think it requires us to really be human first and PT second. And there’s a way to do that, right? And that’s what y’all are talking about. And that’s what the attendee who
Lori Boright (31:58)
authentic.
Elise Cantu (32:23)
comes to this presentation is going to learn how to better do. I think that the listener right now might be thinking like, gosh, I don’t, because that’s how I always feel like I’m not doing a good enough. And so I think there’s a listener out there who’s like, you know, I just don’t feel like I’m doing it. You’re doing it friend. Adam and Lori are going to give you some more tools in your toolbox and how to keep practicing so you can get better at that and better at having these conversations with your patients.
⁓ like this is a very kind of full circle, I think conversation for me. So my grandmother passed away this year and like at the end of her life, she was on hospice and whatnot. And it just, was such an interesting.
kind of experience seeing it through those eyes versus my other grandmother passed away, I think, like my first year of practicing and just seeing kind of the differences and also how I can kind of see different aspects of care between the two of them, like seven years apart, just because of timing and experience and whatnot. It’s just like a really interesting.
kind of full circle moment for me as like as we’re recording this, it’s December 31st, 2025 y’all. So we’re like closing out the year, we’re getting ready for CSM and I’m really, really excited about this presentation because I think it’s going to impact a lot of physical therapists. But I think the bigger, better, more exciting impact is how many patients are going to be impacted by this and how many families are going to be impacted.
by the PTs who go to your session and then go back to their own communities and start implementing this. Like that’s really, really cool to think about. And like it was my family who was impacted by really, really wonderful hospice care this year. And that’s really cool.
Adam Matichak, PT (34:23)
Yeah, we talked about that like full circle moment, right? I’ve, you know, Elise, you and I have talked about this before. Like I lost two patients on my student rotation in my first week here at Stanford. And I’m calling my ECE like, I need to get out of here. I need you to find me a new rotation. Like I can’t do this. And now here we are a decade later training people on how to better handle those situations. So.
Lori Boright (34:23)
Absolutely.
Elise Cantu (34:35)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Lori Boright (34:54)
I can’t emphasize enough, there are no accidents.
It happened for a reason, Adam. You’re a very special human.
It’s an honor to work with you guys.
Adam Matichak, PT (35:11)
Get
Elise Cantu (35:12)
I’m glad that y’all are really taking the…
The lead isn’t even like y’all are taking this next phase of the charge. And it’s really cool to see because I’ve also seen, you know, through like your other presentations and then earlier this fall, we did like a balance and falls, hospice and palliative care kind of intersection conversation. It’s really cool to see this evolving over time. And I’m also really excited to see like, what’s next? What comes next in this evolution of this conversation that y’all are continuing to have. So
I think we’ve really established what attendees are going to take away from your presentation. I do want to make sure that we don’t lose the logistics in this really powerful conversation, AKA when is this session so I can mark it on my calendar and see all of the amazing listeners out there listening to your session.
Adam Matichak, PT (36:09)
So we’re leading off CSM Thursday, two o’clock.
Elise Cantu (36:14)
I just put it on the screen too, hope that works.
Adam Matichak, PT (36:18)
Looking forward to seeing everyone there.
Lori Boright (36:22)
Same.
Elise Cantu (36:23)
And
as of this time, when we’re recording it, we don’t have room assignments yet, but those will be available, I’m sure rather soon on the app for CSM. for like most up-to-date information, make sure that you’re checking that. I’m sure it’ll also be posted on the website at some point, but that’s also outside of my domain. So I don’t know for sure. And then is your session going to be available on demand for listeners to not only
watch if they weren’t able to see the live session, but also to relive the magic of the live session.
Adam Matichak, PT (36:58)
Yes it is.
Elise Cantu (36:59)
Excellent. Very, very good, y’all. Is there anything else you would like to leave the listeners with today as we are very excitedly anticipating your session at CSM this year?
Lori Boright (37:13)
I’m really excited to see everyone. Certainly there’s a lot of, ⁓ know, just excitement is the word around the entire conference. And I always feel really, ⁓ you know, motivated and inspired after. ⁓ But this year is different. This is a sort of a passion project and I’m excited well ahead of time. I really can’t wait to deliver this one.
Adam Matichak, PT (37:42)
Yeah, could not have asked for a better collaborator on this project. Really excited for it. ⁓
Lori Boright (37:51)
Ditto.
Elise Cantu (37:52)
We are
really, really excited for the session over at the Onco PT. And I know a lot of listeners are really looking forward to this session. So y’all thank you so much for coming on the podcast today. Once again, if you’re looking for Adam and Lori’s session. So it is in the oncology session. It’s ON23579. Death is not a dirty word. The what’s what of hospice and palliative care. It is taking place on Thursday, February 12th at 2pm.
And then their session will be available to view on demand after the fact. So very much looking forward to this. This is definitely a session you’re going to want to rewatch and relearn from just as you should Adam’s TCRCC session. I’m just saying, ⁓ cause it was really good. And I feel like it really tees off this very interactive and very actionable session at CSM, which I think is very needed. You know, again, I keep coming back to this theme of ambitious like
It’s time for the ambition. It’s time to be ambitious and to be very lovingly aggressive, I think is what like my kind of approach to this is. It’s time. It’s been time. It’s time to actually make it happen and bring into practice and bring into your own communities. And I’m really looking forward to learning from y’all at CSM. So thank you so, so much once again.
Death is not a dirty word. The what’s what of hospice and palliative care happening Thursday, February 12th at 2 p.m. We cannot wait to see you there. Adam, Lori, thank you so much for coming on the podcast once again to talk about your session. We cannot wait for it. And until next time, this is Elise with the Onco PT. And remember, you are exactly the physical therapist that your patients with cancer need. So let’s get to work.